Legitimate concerns are education and health care. Those are things that could be worked on by allowing work visas and taxing the income that these workers make and/or having them pay the various local and state taxes that are required of us. There are very few workers here now that would be unwilling to take on this responsbility. The government has simply made it impossible for them to be contributing (in the tax sense) citizens. Prohibition is never the answer.

Oh! I didn't even think about education and health care. But I kind of covered that with the whole not paying taxes thing. Plus, employers don't have to provide health care coverage for immigrants that are not here on a Visa or Work Permit or whatever else is required. Interesting. Keep going, I'm learning.

Okay, like I said before...Social Security numbers assigned right at the border. Now, I'm the first to admit that I'm a moron (I've said so many times), but how can that be a bad idea? Doesn't it address the issues right away?

Even though they are not legal citizens, they do have to live somewhere, and they pay rent. They also pay into the Social Security system without expectation of being able to draw from that system in the future.

As for education, the best way to assimilate a community into our society is through the education system. It may not happen in a single generation, but it will happen.

Sure, a lot of immigrants pay social security. However, a lot do not. They are simply paid in cash, without the businesses reporting that money. What I find interesting around here is that a LOT of small business owners are very much against the idea of getting rid of immigrants. This is a split with the Republican establishment that most of them consider themselves a part of at this moment. I mean the equation is simple. Immigrants take jobs for minimum wage or lower, and without healthcare of benefits. That allows the business to have MUCH lower costs. Suddenly a business has to worry about the supply of labor being available and those costs go up considerably. Not only to the owner but in turn to us. Things like homes, produce, gas (yes oil contractors around East Texas hire immigrants to do small jobs), the cost of meals all go up with that change. You really want to see all hell break loose for small business, take away that supply of labor. The Bubbas around here are certainly for "secure borders" when it comes to terrorism, etc., but dont' for a minute think they will back something that is going to cut in to their bottom line.

Let's not forget that taxes are being paid. Every time they purchase something (gasoline, clothes, telephone, etc.), they pay taxes. Since they aren't getting the full rights of citizen, they do not get all of the benefit of those tax dollars.

Regarding the issue of jobs, I don't think you want to pay $20 for a bunch of grapes. All immigrant groups throughout our history were abused by so called "Americans." Unfortunately, unlike the Italians and Irish, Hispanics have not been allowed or been able to fully assimilate in certain parts of the county. We will reach a tipping point where the Hispanic population will become the majority. It's scary for a lot of people currently in power (i.e. white folks).

Most undocumented immigrants that are here are here solely to help their families. They travel to a strange land with a foreign language to be able to provide for their families. If that isn't family values, I don't know what is. I want people like that I my country.

We should embrace the change that is happening and help shape it into a force of prosperity for everyone in our county. We were all immigrants once.

Here here.

Eddie R,

Well said. The Fox News hooligans try to claim that immigrants lack character because they broke the law to get here.

Bullshit.

Our friends from the South came here, like all previous generations of immigrants, to work hard and provide for their famlies. Family values is what they're all about.

Eddie... I don't know if Hispanics will be the majority. Obviously a large minority but those Mormons keep popping out kids at damn near the same rate normal people pop zoloft.

I heard a candidate say that without immigrant labor, houses built here in Texas would be about 25% more expensive.

[shrug]

For whatever that's worth.

Competion is good,right? Free market principles, right? Okay then, if you feel there is too much competition (immigrants taking your labor jobs) then by God get an education and get a job...please stop bitching. If we've created a situation where you can make more money mooching off the government and you think "labor jobs" are beneath you- that is where the policy needs to change. Personal responsibliltiy...look into it. Leave them alone, they aren't stealing jobs...they are working... and those of you with all this time to focus on this ...you are just bitching to avoid doing any actual work. (And you call yourselves Republicans- and probably Christians)

Immigration is a complicated issue for Texas. Texas farmers depend on immigrant labor to get crops out of the fields. Yet Texas ranks so low (49th nationally) in hourly wages, that we cannot afford any legislation that does anything to diminish wages.

I've met a U.S. Congressional candidate, Robert Ricketts, who seems to have a good grip on the situation. He says the first step in immigration is to enact tough legislation dealing with the demand side. If we hold corporations accountantable for paying a living wage to illegal workers and disallow their practice of hiding behind subcontractors, we take a huge initial step in curbing the problem illegal immigration has on depressing wages. These laws, when enforced, would have no effect on Texas farmers and companies who hire immigrant labor legally and pay a fair wage.

Immigration and homeland need to be viewed as totally separate issues. Mexican immigrants trying to feed their families are not trying to destroy America. It is just as easy for a "terrorist" to enter from Canada than from our Southern border.

This is by far the most policy-driven, well-reasoned thread PD has had. Kudos to all who've commented.

The health care issue is probably the most striking, as it's affecting local economies (city/county economies) the most. Too many immigrants have to depend on the ER as their primary care facility. That drives up the costs for those local hospitals, which has to be picked up by the counties, which is then passed on to local taxpayers. Problem is, it's not just an immigrant problem -- all the "legal" children that are cut from CHIP, for example, have to do the same thing.

In that way, immigration (and immigrants) expose the systematic flaws of our state and country's health care and education system. Costs are compounded worse here in Texas, obviously, but the problems would still exist w/o any immigrants, That's why we need big, big ideas to solve this extremely complex issue.

Wizard, I'll profess my ignorance more often then. :)

Agricultural jobs and small businesses are not the only industries affected by immigrant labor. I read an article recently in BusinessWeek about Mohawk Industries and their dependence on immigrant labor. Apparently, the locals of Calhoun, Georgia are sueing Mohawk for hiring "Illegals" and depressng their wages. Apparently, these "Illegals" are willing to work for $7 per hour and it is pissing off all the locals. Apparently, they think they should be paid more.

The locals are probably right, maybe they should be paid more. However, businesses are only going to pay the minimum of what they have to pay. If they are able to get employees for $7 per hour, then that is the going rate. Now, if we pass legislation that eliminates these employees, then do we honestly believe that these businesses are going to increase wages? No! Instead, these businesses are going to close shop and move to Mexico, or Vietnam, or somewhere that labor is cheap. It has been proven before, and it will continue to happen in the future.

So my question to you is: Would you rather work for "Depressed Wages", or be unemployed? You decide.

A few points. First, while Hispanics will be in the majority here in Texas, they will never be a majority (or even a plurality) in the nation as a whole.

Second, in Texas we Anglos have a much more positive view or, and relationship with, Hispanics than California. I suspect this is because of the long Tejano history here.

Third, the economic logic that illegal immigrants depress wages for low-skilled American workers is unassailable. Charity towards poor Mexiacans by allowing them to work here is being imposed on the backs of poor blacks and Hispanic Americans.

Fourth, legislatiion that demands a living wage for illegals will only increase the flow of these people into the country.

Fifth, while illegal immigrants pay taxes, it is an open question (at best) whether the taxes paid are greater than the social services consumed.

The US immigration system is currently broken. We need to move towards a skill-based system, like those of Canada and Austraia, that assign points to potential immigrants for age, job skills, and English proficiency. We need to stop the excessive family unification immigration policy. And we need to, at the very least, purge all the illegals out of this country who have committed crimes or are welfare dependent,

We're lucky that we have Mexicans and other Latin Americans coming over our border rather than Europe where it is Turks and Arabs. But we need to get serious about defending our sovereigity in immigration matters and more selective in the people we admit as legal immigrants and citizens.

"No! Instead, these businesses are going to close shop and move to Mexico, or Vietnam, or somewhere that labor is cheap. It has been proven before, and it will continue to happen in the future."

Yeah, outsourcing restaurants, home construction, and landscaping is likely to be effective.

I agree with blue.

Americans are full of themselves! Every time this issue comes up, there's a certain number of "concerned citizens" who talk about just how lucky immigrants are to find their way to our fantastic country. I'm guessing that if immigrants could make a living where they're from, they'd have no interest in dealing with our bullshit. They're not here because they don't want to be Mexican, for example. They're here to feed their families. Over time, they choose to make this country their home because they've had children here, married here.

We didn't hang the moon.

The undocumented workers I have spoken to would be happy to pay social security and income taxes. With a tax return (and SS #) comes the ability to apply for a loan and buy a house....and pay property taxes that will go to schools and hospital districts...... They WANT to have SS#'s and all the rights and duties that go with that privilege.

During the Reagan admin amnesty was granted and millions of Latinos became tax paying, legal workers or better yet, citizens. They assimilated into our society and we are so much richer because of it.

From what I can see, the part of our immigration system that is broken is the part that keeps hard working people who want to be part of our society on the fringe and not paying taxes and contributing and realizing the American dream. That's what my grandmother and grandfather did and they produced 12 (yes 12) American citizens that have paid taxes and contributed to the fabric of our country. If they come and are given the right to work legally, then the free market will adjust as well. We don't have low wage jobs because of Mexican immigrants. We have low wage jobs because there are no laws forcing us to pay better and provide health insurance.

I posted my thoughts here:

http://texashippie.blogspot.com/2006/03/thoughts-on-immigration.html

Despite my limited perspective on recent history, it seems to me that Conservatives have always been afraid of immigration, and Democrats (largely the recipient of the immigrant-born legal votes) have always embraced it. Nothing really new here. But never have I seen it so polarized. One could say that I would need to have experienced the civil rights movement to know what real tension was, but my retort is that we should have learned better by now. I grew up in an age that knew as little racial animosity as ever, and I feel like that could change soon; this really alarms me.

My parents are fascinated with genealogy and have traced our family back in each direction for many, many generations. And despite the fact that we have loose suspicions of having some Native American in my blood line, we have not found anything but honkies from Europe. So remind me again, who the hell is it who's afraid of immigration?

To godmother: I think we are on the same page. Let's make being given a SS# instantaneous upon entry into the country. I want nothing more than anyone who wants to be here to be allowed to be here and to contribute. It's isn't a fix-all to the Immigration issue, but it's a start.
God bless all who want to come to this country.
-and I agree with the comment from the wizard. I love the silly shit here, but this issue is SO important to talk about! Thanks, PD!

We can educate these folks and have the greatest work force (and best economy in the world). Or fail to do so, and have a mess on our hands.

One thing that does strike me as different now than 30 years ago with immigration to Texas -- there are women.

As I recall from my childhood, ranchers paid men $1 a day to work. They'd work their tails off, then go home for a month over Christmas, taking the money saved home to their wives in Mexico. Now, the women are coming too. And, they want to work, earn money and support their families as much as the men. (Feminism comes to immigration.) Then, with the happy couple, more children are born here (just as much a citizen as any other) and you've got a productive family.

Educate those kids, and we've got a booming economy. Shut them and their parents out and we've got problems.

Here in Dallas there's a parade and protest on April 9 organized by the high school kids. (DISD is 70%+ hispanic in the first grade.) I am so there!